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I'm afraid that I don't understand "Ratification sticky" section.

Is the idea that the student has written their own work in one language and then used a translation programme on it to produce a "phenomenal result" in the target language? If so I have two problems. Firstly, that's not exactly "plagiarism" - though I'm not sure what the description for that would be. Secondly, I've yet to use a translation programme which comes anything close to "phenomenal".

Furthermore, I'm also not exactly sure of the size and form of the "ratification sticky" is this a post-it note or something more substantial? The name implies one thing but the list of exercises implies something else.

Sorry if I seem hyper-critical - I'm just trying to understand the section.--Bob M 08:44, 24 November 2012 (CST)

No problem Bob M; as for the sticky query, take a look here: [[1]]
Re the translation, you are right: translation isn`t plagiarism so I have rephrased the explanation - hopefully it`s clearer now. I`m not sure I agree with you about your take on translation programs, and here`s a webquest that will prove my point(assuming you are living abroad):
1. go into a net cafe and browse the web using Google Chrome
2. log into your email account and send yourself a sentence by email
3. once you`ve sent it, change the browser configuration to "always translate this page"
4. open the email you sent yourself - I`d imagine that`s one of numerous ways it can be done.
--Jameson2000ad 21:27, 26 November 2012 (CST)
I figured that was what you meant by a sticky - it's just that it might be a little small for all the things you suggest. :-)
There are a few ways to work with translation programmes. I mention some of them here. As a test I've just taken a paragraph at random from this article in a Spanish newspaper. And the translation follows:
Margallo's silence does not respond only to a diplomatic exercise of discretion. Government sources admit that the government has not yet agreed on the decision trickiest foreign policy that has had to take Mariano Rajoy since arriving in La Moncloa.
You can kind of figure out what it means, but it's hardly "phenomenal". You or I could take that text and fix it up so that it would read very well, but in order to make the necessary corrections you'd already need to have pretty high-level english skills.--Bob M 03:24, 27 November 2012 (CST)
OK, you have a point about my turn of phrase when I typed "phenomenal" - that`s just how it seems when a pre-intermediate student submits a text of a quality similar to your example above... Yes, a sticky may be too small, but they come in different sizes - and one or two sentences usually does the trick anyway .. --Jameson2000ad 13:08, 28 November 2012 (CST)
OK, that's cool . :-)--Bob M 07:11, 29 November 2012 (CST)

(outdent) Just like to point out that translating a text without its author's permission is clearly copyright violation. Translating does offer "advantages" to plagiarisers in that it's harder to detect by us language cops. But we're right in there behind 'em. --Technopat 12:16, 30 November 2012 (CST)

It is plagiarism when the original source is not cited, regardless of translation. Copyright infringement, again regardless of translation, is a different matter however and mitigated by "fair use" grounds when the only copy is purely for educational purposes and only seen by oneself and ones teacher. However, the plagiarism and personal offense, to ones teacher, to ones classmates and to ones own aspirations to learn to write, of passing others work off as ones own in writing assignments is a problem. Part of the solution is for both students and teachers to be aware of the problem and for teachers to not let this slip by through inattention. Knowing how to look out for it and sharing strategies for noticing it is great. Thanks James! --Roger 17:51, 30 November 2012 (CST)
Not sure if it's been mentioned elsewhere, but care must be taken regarding "fair use". It's a doctrine that is only recognised in the US (and Israel) and even then there are serious problems arising from its ambiguity. See [2]. Some years back, the heavies from Walt Disney approached the publishers of an educational journal edited by a friend of mine, and they told to 'em pay $50 million for having printed the lyrics to one of the songs from The Lion King as part of an excellent article explaining the history of Disney's hits and why they were so successful, or they'd take 'em to court and sue 'em for a far higher figure, effectively closing down the business. In those very words. I never found out whether the publishers paid up in the end because my friend died shortly afterwards, but I imagine they did 'cos publication continued. --Technopat 04:04, 1 December 2012 (CST)

Verification sticky...?[edit]

I'm still not too happy with that 2nd verification method. I reckon I understand the mechanism, but don't really see the psychology behind it. Whereas I know some pretty "smart" students able to reproduce verbatim a text they've read, I personally am incapable of remembering more than half a dozen words of something that I have written myself, so really don't see that this can even remotely hint at plagiarism. Bottom-line is, do we have a reliable source for that method? --Technopat 12:10, 30 November 2012 (CST)

OK, the point is that if a student has copied a text they, most certainly won`t have read it in detail or memorized it. The copied text is also highy likely to be of a standard above their ability, because that is the whole idea: to get a better mark. Even if they are just lazy and are capable of producing a text of the same standard, chances are they won`t know how to reproduce the most complicated sections of the text. Additionaly, a student will never know which phrases the teacher is going to select to test them on, therefore it`s highly unlikely that a student will be able to remember sections of a text unless they personally "processed" it, as they do when writing one. If they are the genuine author, whatever they have written should instantly be familiar (assuming the verification process is carried out within a few days), whereas a copied text will be much more vague to memory. If the teacher tests them on different language points i.e. word formation, punctuation, spelling, grammar etc, I would expect that the majority of cheats will get caught out.--Jameson2000ad 11:37, 8 December 2012 (CST)
OK, thanks. I see your point now. Never actually having had to confront that kind of situation, I still haven't internalised it all enough to feel comfortable explaining it, so maybe you could add your explanation to the text to preemt other Doubting Thomases. Cheers! --Technopat 05:13, 10 December 2012 (CST)
Here's me daily laugh. 'Tis not only students we have to monitor. Am currently quarter way through translating a 25-page paper co-authored by a university professor and two other chappies, one of them a director of the largest private institution in this country and a high-profile figure in the EU in his sector. So far, I have come across three instances of direct copy & paste from three different internet sources. Not talking here 'bout a sequence of half a dozen words that coincide, but 3 distinct paragraphs of 12-14 lines each that have been lifted, with no credit being given directly or indirectly anywhere in the document I'm translating. In one case, the lifting is so badly done, i.e. no attempt to ease the text in, that they refer to another institution, by name, as their own! Amazing! In the first case, I have snidely added the title of the original EU paper in brackets after the offending para., in the hope that when they see it they'll have at least a slight pang of guilty conscience, but have decided against doing so for the other instances. In the case of naming the other institution, I have simply struck out the name and written "our organisation". Let 'em answer for their crimes, I say. The bastards, I add.
I must now confess to having a sorta morbid interest in detecting other instances in the remainder of the paper, but maybe I shouldn't waste my precious time :) Bottom line is, today's students are tomorrow's leaders. Sigh! Or maybe that should be "yesterday's students are today's leaders"... double sigh!! Back to the grind, --Technopat 08:36, 14 December 2012 (CST)
Maybe if you look around you'll find that somebody has already translated it! I was asked to translate some articles once and found that the documents already existed in the target language.--Bob M 14:46, 14 December 2012 (CST)
Did you do the translation? I have a regular client who updates his organisation's background info. every year and just rewrites a couple of lines, enough to warrant a new translation. So who's complaining? --Technopat 06:21, 15 December 2012 (CST)
I had a crisis of conscience and just printed up the existing translation and told my client where it came from. Gained his trust though. Got a lot of work after that. Until he went bankrupt. :-( --Bob M 06:24, 15 December 2012 (CST)
Well done chaps, this thread is a good read - very entertaining :) --Jameson2000ad 22:59, 25 January 2013 (CST)
It could get even more entertaining :) , but then the powers-that-b. would start complaining 'bout this not being a forum, 'bout not going off-topic and a whole stream o' deadly sins :) Better stick to the original topic, which was...? Oh, yes. Now, carrying on from where I left off, the topic of self-plagiarism (also known as "recycling fraud"), although possibly a misnomer, insofar as one would normally be expected to grant permission to oneself, refers to the reuse of one's own work without acknowledging the original media in which it was published or transmitted. This, of course, brings to mind the notorious case of... Regs., --Technopat 05:58, 28 January 2013 (CST)

(outdent) It occurs to me, regarding the example I mention above, that of the 25-page paper, that the guys 'n' gals up there at the top are simply too busy to bother about actually looking for the material themselves and just get their secretaries and/or students to look for "interesting material", and these minions probably just stick it in "as is". Which, of course, adds aggravations to the original crime of downright plagiarism: the executive one of not giving clear, precise instructions when delegating; and the moral one of just being plain lazy and/or careless... Sigh! I knew that when I got started on this topic it would lead me off down unexplored paths towards who-knows-where. Regs., --Technopat 06:36, 28 January 2013 (CST)